RMS on capitalism and poverty

Note: RMS stands for Richard M. Stallman. He created the Free Software movement, and is generally an incredibly smart guy.

Slashdot linked to this interview with RMS:

Free Software as a Social Movement -- Richard Stallman interviewed by Justin Podur

Most of the article, as is to be expected, deals directly with Free/Open Source Software and the related politics and activism. But, it also gets into the subject of capitalism. The specific part that struck me, since it was a viewpoint I had never considered before, came from this particular Q&A:

JP: -- But "anti-capitalists' use a different definition. They see capitalism as markets, private property, and, fundamentally, class hierarchy and class division. Do you see class as fundamental to capitalism?

RMS: No. We have had a lot of social mobility, class mobility, in the United States. Fixed classes--which I do not like--are not a necessary aspect of capitalism.

However, I don't believe that you can use social mobility as an excuse for poverty. If someone who is very poor has a 5% chance of getting rich, that does not justify denying that person food, shelter, clothing, medical care, or education. I believe in the welfare state.

Often when I'm discussing/debating social assistance/welfare programs with people who are against them, their reason for being against them is that the poor have the same opportunity to improve their situation as anyone else. So, therefore there is no reason that middle and upper class people should be forced to support them. I usually end up arguing that they don't have the same opportunities, which is a somewhat murky argument. The idea expressed by RMS above completely bypasses that discussion.

What he says after that is interesting, too, so I'm including it below.

JP: But you are not for equality of outcomes?

RMS: No, I'm not for equality of outcomes. I want to prevent horrible outcomes. But aside from keeping people safe from excruciating outcomes, I believe some inequality is unavoidable.

JP: Inequality based on how much effort people put forth?

RMS: Yes, but also luck.

JP: You don't want society to reward luck, though.

RMS: Luck is just another word for chance. It is unavoidable that chance has an effect on your life. But poverty is avoidable. It is horrible for people to suffer hunger, death for lack of medical care, to work 12 hours a day just to survive. (Well, I work 12 hours a day, but that's unpaid activism, not a job -- so it's ok.)